Vanity in SS design, by msew, Coyote, Art Lathrop, Greg, and sb

Vanity in SS design

By msew (msew@ev1.net), Coyote, Art Lathrop (art@lathrop.com), Greg (gzdenek@my-deja.com), and sb (sbul@my-deja.com) As collected from rec.games.computer.stars 24 Jan 02

msew's original posted design for an SS that can do well in actual games

• PRT: SS
• LRTs: ISB, OBRM, NAS, LSP
• Hab: G immune; T -152 to 152; R 63 to 91 MR
• Growth rate: 14%
• Population efficiency: 1 per 1500
• Factory settings: 12/10/15/3G (Factories cost 1 kT less)
• Mine settings: 11/4/12
• Research: energy 5% more; cons 50% less; weap 50% less; elect 50% less; prop 75 more; bio 75% more
• 1 pt left over (into factories)

any one out there have thoughts/ridicule/advice? :-)

thanks!!!

Coyote's interjection:

Play it as a normal HP, you'll want a little better tech settings than usual but don't overdo it. Since you have the Robber Baron and you shouldn't be getting in many direct fights, you might not need stupendous mines like your WM would.

SS is a game of skill, not brawn. You can get by with fewer resources than your enemy if you know how to use them well.

Art Lathrop's reply and design:

Two years ago or so, I was on an SS kick. If you don't have any IS around, I don't think there is a more fun race to play (assuming that you can get enough of an economy to at least scare your opponents). Personally, instead of going for the HP style, I went for HG. Now, if you decide to use this race, you should be forewarned that it is one of the least forgiving "monsters" you will ever try to play. Make sure you really know how to optimize growth. If you treat it with respect, you will do well (this particular race made 25k by 2450 in a real game with 9 other experts competing against it). If the environment is not kind, things can get ugly (in an other version of the race, I got stuck with only 2 green planets within 200 ly of its homeworld and one of those was mineral poor - I won the game, but only after a slow start, some great diplomacy, and a LOT of good luck). Honestly, I cannot tell you if this was the best version of my SS monsters - it just happen to be the one I could find easily. I put the extra points into surface minerals.

The Cows of Avignon

• IFE, NRSE, OBRM
• .031 - 3.2 g; -120 - 120 C; 15 - 67mR
• 18% Growth
• 1/1000
• 11/8/14
• 10/3/10
• Weapons cheap, all else +75%

Greg's reply and design:

I am by no means an expert, but lately I have been on an SS kick and have tweaked this race over a couple of games.

The Brotherhood

• SS
• IFE, NRSE, OBRM, NAS
• Grav - Immune; Temp -100 to 100; Rad 58 to 100
• Growth 15%
• 1 in 4 planets habitable
• 1 per 1000
• Factories 12 / 9 / 16 - 1 G checked
• Mines 10 / 3 / 14
• Weapons cheap, rest expensive

Here is some basic tips I would give as well, some I learned the hard way:

1. Shoot for chameleon scanner early - 1 on a scout is good for finding greens, and 5 on a frigate is expensive but gives ok pen scanners.
2. When you finally get robber barrons, put them on an unarmed ship. I have had problems with armed ships attacking even when set to dissengage. Send freightors with the robbers too and clean them out. Pick one minerals and steal it from every planet. Germ is usually good, but Iron is nice to stop missle weapons.
3. Get the fuel mizer and expand quickly. I know many people say get the HW to 25% for max pop growth, and then expand - but I can tell you that colonization is 99% of ownership. So colonize rapidly. If someone wants to colonize a planet and you are there first, they will have to be willing to go to war and invade to take it. Most people won't do this early. In short, wait to move large bulks of pop till you hit 25%, but grab some space.
4. Go offensive. Being 98% cloaked does not help if you are trying to defend your space. Use one immune to find someone with a different hab, intercolonize or at least make a border and attack the other way.
5. Design a terror ship. My favorite is a rogue with 4 mine-sweeping guns and 4 minelayers. I usually shoot for 98% cloaked, but it works ok earlier in the game at 80%+ or so. Basically these ships operate far behind enemy lines and either sweep mines before an attack or pop up small chunks of mines where no mines should be ;) While I don't know first hand, I can only imagine that this is maddening.

Thats all I can come up with off the top of my head. Ask any questions and I will try to help.

Best of luck.

sb's comments on Greg's design:

Interesting post. May I add a few comments...

Weapons cheap, rest expensive

Including elec expensive...? Will be a mess to get the RB and the ultracloak. Problem is that by then your cloaking advantage may have been much curtailed by enemy scanners/IS tachyons. And as far as the RB is concerned, your enemy will have sentry fleets at every planet.

1. Shoot for chameleon scanner early - 1 on a scout is good for finding greens, and 5 on a frigate is expensive but gives ok pen scanners

   Scanner 4 and 5 are almost useless. Better save that g for factories or another scanning ship.

2. When you finally get robber barrons, put them on an unarmed ship. I have had problems with armed ships attacking even when set to disengage. Send freighters with the robbers too and clean them out.

   Check. Why would anyone put RBs on armed ships??

3. Get the fuel mizer and expand quickly. I know many people say get the HW to 25% for max pop growth, and then expand - but I can tell you that colonization is 99% of ownership.

   The usual debate. I'm surprised you weren't jumped by the orthodox of this NG :)

   Actually, as SS you have the better option: to sneak in unseen and popdrop early enemy colonies. Find the one who shares your hab and let him have it (means war of course ;)

   So colonize rapidly. If someone wants to colonize a planet and you are there first, they will have to be willing to go to war and invade to take it. Most people won't do this early. In short, wait to move large bulks of pop till you hit 25%, but grab some space

   Ack!

4. Go offensive. Being 98% cloaked does not help if you are trying to defend your space.

   Disagree entirely. SS have huge defending benefits from cloaks (talking from experience). It's a long explanation, but the short explanation is that if you do it right, you will see the attack coming, but the attacker doesn't see your defense (before it's too late).

5. Design a terror ship. My favorite is a rogue with 4 mine-sweeping guns and 4 minelayers. I usually shoot for 98% cloaked, but it works ok earlier in the game at 80%+ or so. Basically these ships operate far behind enemy lines and either sweep mines before an attack or pop up small chunks of mines where no mines should be ;) While I don't know first hand, I can only imagine that this is maddening.

   For this tactic, you better pray that you don't run into an SD enemy. It will be a guessing game on both sides where fleets/detonations will be each year. Fun, but most expensive for the SS - mines cost nothing.

Best of luck.

You too.

Art Lathrop's point on sb's comment regarding research:

> Weapons cheap, rest expensive

Including elec expensive...? Will be a mess to get the RB and the ultracloak. Problem is that by then your cloaking advantage may have been much curtailed by enemy scanners/IS tachyons. And as far as the RB is concerned, your enemy will have sentry fleets at every planet.

I feel this is a common misconception among those who play SS. Ask yourself, what technologies are most critical to SS and how high must you go to get what you really need? Let's start by looking at non-SS races. Most players take cheap weapons (Arm missiles and AMP will probably be the first "final" technology most players will get). Some take cheap construction (for non-AR's this is usually because they are trying to get Nubians first, not because they are trying to get BB's first). Why not take cheap in other fields? Well, unless you are AR, you can get away with with energy 10, prop 12 (or 16 depending on whether you have NRSE or not), elec 16 or 19 (depending on whether you view Nexus as a critical technology), and a laughably low bio all the way to Nubians. Given you will need 24 or 26 in weapons and 26 in construction before any other techs are maxed out, it makes sense to take weapons and maybe construction.

So what about SS? The highest tech SS goody is the RB and it is elec 16. So, why should you take cheap elec when you really don't have that far to go to get the best stuff. Yes, it is nice to have a certain level of cloaking or such a few turns early; however, it is much more important to get those powerful, cloaked warships. The only way to do that is to get weapons and construction up. Ultra stealth is lower tech than BB, so even if you did not plan to go all the way to nubians, you would be better off taking cheap construction than cheap elec. Take cheap weapons and maybe take cheap construction, then poor those saved research resources into elec.

sb's reply to Art's point:

So, why should you take cheap elec when you really don't have that far to go to get the best stuff. Yes, it is nice to have a certain level of cloaking or such a few turns early; however, it is much more important to get those powerful, cloaked warships. The only way to do that is to get weapons and construction up. Ultra stealth is lower tech than BB, so even if you did not plan to go all the way to nubians, you would be better off taking cheap construction than cheap elec. Take cheap weapons and maybe take cheap construction, then poor those saved research resources into elec.

Depends on a lot. I agree that the RB is actually more for fun. It won't win you the game - not now that the popsteal is banned anyway ;)

So if you s*** the RB from the beginning, I agree. Elec may not need to be cheap. OTOH SS do enjoy the biggest advantage of their cloaking in the early to mid-game. So if you want to be an early aggressor, you will want the cloaking early on.

This is what: you finally have elec 16 and deploy your 98% cloaked BB/NB. Ta-daaa! Only to find that the enemy deploys 97% cloaked NBs and NBs stuffed with scanners (and tachyons).

They say you cannot outwait technology. I suppose this one such case?